Carno Station Action Group Time for a train service

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru - The National Assembly for Wales

Y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu - The Enterprise and Learning Committee

Wednesday, 14 November 2007

Craffu ar Ymatebion Ysgrifenedig y Gweinidog a Network Rail i Adroddiad y Pwyllgor ar ei Drafodaethau ynghylch Deiseb i Ailagor Gorsaf Reilffordd Carno

Scrutiny of the Minister's and Network Rail's Written Responses to the Committee's Report on its Consideration of the Petition to Reopen Carno Railway Station

[284] Gareth Jones: I remind you that we have received papers: paper 3, which was prepared by the minister, and paper 3a, which is Network Rail's response to the report and to recommendation 6. We have little time, and I hope that we can be as concise as possible, but this is an important matter.

[285] I will give you the background in brief, or remind you of it. The committee considered a petition to reopen Carno railway station in a public meeting in Carno on 4 September. Having evaluated the evidence, the committee laid its report before the Assembly on 27 September. The Minister provided his written response before the date specified by Standing Orders for the committee to scrutinise its decisions. Network Rail has also provided its response to recommendation 6, which was directed at the company. This is the scrutiny session. We welcome back Ieuan Wyn Jones, the Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport. Would you be kind enough to give a short presentation in accordance with your comments on this matter? We will then have an opportunity to question you on some aspects of your comments.

[286] The Deputy First Minister: Tim James has joined me from the department to answer any technical questions arising from the report. I welcome the opportunity to respond to your report. I realise that this is part of a new process in the Assembly for submitting petitions to the Petitions Committee. This petition was transferred to you and you drafted a report and I have responded to it. I feel that this is an important part of our work as a Government in responding to the needs of communities, when we are able to do so - it does not always mean that we can give the response that the committee or the petitioners would wish, but I feel that it is an important part of our new processes. It is important that people have a method by which they can present the concerns of their communities to the Assembly and to the Government and that we can respond. I do not know whether it would be of any benefit for me to make any specific presentation on the report as your report has received quite a full response from my officials and me. I am quite happy to answer any questions arising from the recommendations and the response.

[287] Gareth Jones: I welcome the people from Carno who are in the public gallery today. This session gives us an opportunity to ask questions about the contents of your paper.

[288] Kirsty Williams: Thank you for your response, Minister, although I am sure that you would agree that it is not what people in Carno would have liked it to be. I have questions about two of the recommendations specifically. You have given assurances that the selection of Talerddig, rather than Carno, as the passing loop site does not prejudice the potential opening of a station of Carno. However, in terms of having an hourly service, there must be time for the trains to travel from one passing loop to the next within 30 minutes. Can you assure us that that will still be possible with the inclusion of a stop at Carno? If it is not, that demonstrates that you are not correct in saying that selecting Talerddig has not compromised the situation at Carno.

[289] Your recommendation 3 mentions passive provision for a single-platform station. What is the nature of the passive provision for the station in Carno? You state that the optimum site for the new station is not yet known. Would common sense not tell you that it is likely to be the site of the original station?

[290] On recommendation 7, there is grave concern that ‘New Stations: A Guide for Promoters' lays down very high standards. No-one wants to compromise on safety, but it talks about two-platform stations costing between £5 million and £7 million in 2004. My understanding is that the current station at Llanharan is being built for only £4.3 million, even though it includes a very expensive footbridge that complies with the Disability Discrimination Act 2005, which is completely necessary. Do you not share my concerns, and those of people living in rural Wales, that there is a danger that setting unnecessarily high standards for new stations may price them out of existence? Do you not think that there is scope for the Welsh Assembly Government to look at the Welsh situation differently, given the nature of our country? Perhaps we could produce our own Welsh version of a new station guide, given the nature of Wales and also the Government's stated commitment to climate change and sustainable development.

[291] 11.30 a.m.

[292] The Deputy First Minister: There are some quite technical issues there, which I will ask Tim to come to in a minute. However, my understanding is-and it has always been on this basis-that the work that has been carried out under the contract does not compromise the future of provision of a station in Carno. That is my understanding, and I want to give that reassurance again that the work that is currently being done, and the way that it is being done, does not compromise the provision of a station in Carno at some future point. That is the first thing that you asked for.

[293] Your second point related to the Cambrian line infrastructure enhancement project providing passive provision, which is in my response. A technical feasibility study would be needed to understand all of the issues that are set out there, which would be compliance to engineering standards, compliance to the DDA, ownership and availability of land, safety standards, and so on. It is important for us to accept that there is a minimum standard that has to be achieved in the provision of safety. If we compromised on those, people who would expect that certain safety standards were met would criticise us for not meeting those standards in particular areas where we have asked others to meet those standards. So, we must have a common standard form. The issue about whether they should be different in Wales as compared with England is a difficult one, because we would not want to compromise safety standards in Wales at all. We need to bear that in mind.

[294] Tim, I would like you to come in on the passive provision, but, I would like to make a more general point first. The reality is that, as a Government, we are very committed to the provision of public transport, which includes rail. We want to make it as easy as possible to use those services. A number of criteria have to be met. We are saying that the door is not closed on a station in Carno; we now need to look at a possible business case, which can be presented to the regional consortium and can then be considered in the normal way through that procedure.

[295] Mr James: I will respond to Kirsty's question about what passive provision means. Essentially, the line is being resignalled, and there is a capability within that design to allow a station to be located somewhere in Carno. So, it does not preclude it. There is no need to go back to the drawing board and spend money on a complicated design process.

[296] Picking up on some of the other points, as the Minister has said, high standards need to be maintained for railway stations. If you look at the document that you have referred to, the Strategic Rail Authority guide to stations, it says that:

[297] ‘The promotion of a new station proposal will involve a number of industry participants. Before a proposal can proceed the support of the rail industry must be obtained.'

[298] The industry extends beyond Wales. However, we have seen this guidance note used effectively in Wales, where six new stations are opening on the Ebbw Vale line, and in Llanharan and Abercynon. So, as a guidance document, it can be useful. Clearly, parts of it are out of date. It may be of some comfort to the committee to know that the Department for Transport is currently rewriting this document to bring it up to date, and is taking advice from us in the process.

[299] Kirsty Williams: The concern is that the Minister's response relies heavily on that document, which gives quite large figures for the development of stations, which perhaps bear no resemblance to reality-the Minister is saying that we have a limited budget and the document says that a new station would cost us a certain amount, but, in reality, stations are being built for less than would be indicated by the design guide, and not to a lesser standard; they simply come in cheaper. I would hate to think that we were prejudicing the case because we are relying on outdated or outmoded figures. Our experience tells us different.

[300] Mr James: At Carno, when I gave the original evidence, I quoted the Llanharan figure of between £4 million and £5 million as a likely maximum cost for Carno. I would like to assure you that we are not gold-plating any potential costs.

[301] Gareth Jones: Thank you for that information, which is important and central to the matter of reopening the station.

[302] Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you for this fairly positive response. Carno is not in my constituency, obviously, but I feel involved because I was one of the Assembly Members who attended the hearing, and I take a particular interest in the development of the railway network, which I regard as probably the key form of land-based transport, especially for passengers. That does demand, of course, that it stops to pick people up in population centres. Clearly, in that part of mid Wales, Carno is such a centre of population, so it seemed an obvious and welcome proposal.

[303] I note that you are encouraging greater involvement with the local transport consortium-I hope that that happens. Would you give positive encouragement to the transport consortia to engage with the residents of Carno-the petitioners-so that a decent business case can be put together? Like Kirsty-or rather, her now-empty chair-I accept that safety has to be paramount and that any new station, or the remains of the old station there, which would seem the ideal location, has to be DDA compliant, and has to have adequate lighting and so on, although I am quite sure that there are grounds for questioning the estimated £5 million for its construction. I am not saying that the cost would be as low as the £0.5 million that the petitioners believe it could be built for, but there has to be some movement somewhere.

[304] In its approach to the matter, Network Rail insisted, if memory serves me, that a footbridge had to be built over the existing line. Having said that, we did this the wrong way round in that we heard that before we actually went to have a look at the site. When we got to the site, we saw that the existing arrangement of a level crossing with half barriers on the road was working quite normally. I was able to walk back and forth over it many times without any threat to my life, and I dare say that the train slows down and there would be warnings. A footbridge would mean substantial expenditure; I do not see the justification for that, especially as the platform, if built, would be on the side of the centre of population. So, when we take these things into account, it could be that the actual construction costs would be far less than originally anticipated. Those are the sorts of issues that could be looked at by the transport consortium, in negotiation with Network Rail and others, in drawing up a business plan.

[305] The Deputy First Minister: Yes, that is the case. If the business case comes forward, then they need to reflect on your comments-I am sure that they will read the comments and the Record of Proceedings for this committee with interest when they form their case.

[306] When you say ‘encouragement', there is encouragement there for the local community to positively contribute towards the process, as we say in our report in response, through engagement with Trafnidiaeth Canolbarth Cymru. Then, of course, the business case will come forward for consideration. The original recommendation was that I would ask my officials to provide support to the action group. We are saying that that is best delivered in discussion with TraCC, because we need to look at regional priorities as well, bearing in mind your points about construction. If the business case comes up with a proposal, then we would look at it, although I cannot give any commitments, financial or otherwise, at this stage. Tim, do you want to add to that?

[307] Mr James: Just to say that TraCC is one of the consortia putting together regional transport plans, and we would look to see Carno as a priority within such a plan, so that it can be considered along with the other consortia in the round. TraCC can help Carno with making a business case that fits the Assembly government's appraisal criteria.

11.40 a.m.

[308] David Melding: I am still a bit confused. It seems that recommendation 4 was the key one in that this committee felt that a formal business plan should be submitted and that support would be needed for that. I cannot determine whether a business case will be presented yet; the officials tell us about the regional procedures, but is there a business case currently under construction on whether there should be a station at Carno? That is not the responsibility of the Carno Station Action Group, because I agree with the recommendation that it should be the consortia-the Assembly, Arriva Trains, and Network Rail. Therefore, are those organisations consulting the Carno Station Action Group, and are they working on a business plan for a station at Carno? We need a ‘yes' or a ‘no' to that. I note that Network Rail's response is that it does not consider that an appropriate business case exists for a new station at the site, but that, if a third party were to submit a business case for its reopening, it would be assessed by Network Rail. It seems completely disassociated from the process-that is what concerns me.

[309] Mr James: On whether a business case exists, the answer is ‘no'. However, one is being worked on; I am aware that the action group has contacted TraCC and has asked for its help. We told TraCC that it should lead the process, and that the people of Carno should help to provide evidence for that business case, along the lines of the Welsh transport appraisal guidance, which sets a clear framework for appraising projects. Therefore, the current answer is that it is in progress-it is probably in its early days.

[310] On Network Rail's position, it is stated that Network Rail would not be prepared to fund the station itself. However, there is a window for third-party funding, so, if there is a business case, and if it is a priority, then it is something that we can do because we have the powers to do that under the Railways Act 2005.

[311] Gareth Jones: As one of the Members who was present in Carno at that crucial meeting, I am pleased to hear you say, Minister, that, whatever we write in our letter to you, or to the Petitions Committee, if that content is positive and gives support, then that you would seriously consider that.

[312] I accept that this is not a business case as you would normally require, Minister, but, as a mark of respect to the action group in Carno, I believe that it is to be warmly congratulated on the way in which it has presented this case to us, and to the Assembly. Its objectives in relation to the community and what it expects in terms of development in this part of mid Wales are in line with our objectives and aspirations as the Welsh Assembly Government. Getting all of that in line with a successful business plan is another matter.

[313] However, I can reassure those people from Carno who are here that we as a committee thank them for the work that they have carried out. We recognise their sincerity and aspirations, as well as their expertise in this matter, and their aspirations. I am sure that I speak on behalf of all members of this committee when I say that we will be declaring our support for what they wish to see, namely the reopening of the station in Carno.

[314] I remind you, therefore, that we will be writing to the Chair of the Petitions Committee, as a result of this session. I thank you, Minister, for joining us, and for your comments. We wish this action group all the best; it is carrying out good work for the community in Carno.

[315] The Deputy First Minister: Thank you.

Fifteen members of Carno Station Action Group travelled to the National Assembly on Wednesday November 14th to see the Minister of Economy and Transport answer questions on plans for Carno Station re-opening. The Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, was being scrutinised by the Enterprise and Learning Committee on his responses to their recommendations following their hearing in Carno.

Group Members on steps of National Assembly

One of the key recommendations of the Enterprise and Learning Committee was that Carno Station Action Group develop and submit a formal business case with support from the Minister’s officials. However, the Minister’s view was that it was the rôle of TraCC, the Mid Wales Transport Planning Consortium, to develop business cases for transport infrastructure and he replied that Carno Station Action Group could best contribute towards this process by working with them.

The Minister responded to the recommendations of the Enterprise and Learing Committee on Friday November 9th - see below. The Committee will have the opportunity to questions him on his response at their meeting on Wednesday November 14th. Sixteen members of the Action Group are planning to travel to Cardiff then to attend the meeting.

Enterprise and Learning Committee

EL(3) 10-07 (p3) : 14 November 2007

Written Response to the Enterprise & Learning Committee's  recommendations in respect of the petition to reopen Carno Railway Station by Ieuan Wyn Jones, Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport.

One Wales makes a commitment to improve train services and railway stations.

Welsh Assembly Government is working in partnership with Network Rail, Train Operators and the four Regional Transport Consortia to deliver the One Wales commitments for the people of this country.

In the context of improving the Cambrian railway line, I have already agreed to provide capital funding of £8 million in 2008-09 to improve the infrastructure between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury.  Network Rail is investing another £5 million from its Performance Fund. Total investment including project development work is £13.4 million.

The investment will provide for a major improvement in punctuality of train services, will make possible potential future enhancement of train frequencies, and delivers economies of scale by virtue of being incorporated within Network Rail's European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) national pilot project.

The investment will enable the installation of new or improved passing loops - to ensure trains from opposite directions can pass without being held up - and the raising of the track at Dovey Junction by 0.6 metres to reduce the risk of flooding from the adjacent estuary.

Works to be carried out between Autumn 2007 and December 2008 will include additional passing provision at Dovey Junction, Talerddig and Welshpool and the removal or improvement of a little used former farm level crossing at Weig lane near Caersws. 

The Project will be undertaken in parallel with, and by the same contractors for, the installation of the £60 million plus European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) national resignalling project.

I have set out below my response to the Report's individual recommendations.

Detailed responses to the report's recommendations are set out below:

Recommendation 1

Recommendation:

The Committee....Welcomes the decision to proceed with the Cambrian Line Infrastructure Enhancement Project and urges the Welsh Assembly Government to provide the necessary funding for an hourly service on the line as soon as possible after the infrastructure work has been completed.

Response:

The Cambrian Line Infrastructure Enhancement Project will be completed in December 2008. Thereafter, the provision of a more frequent (i.e. hourly) train service will be assessed in the context of relative priorities within the Regional Transport Plans and the availability of funding within the Government's revenue budget.

Recommendation 2

Recommendation:

The Committee.....Supports the view that safety must be a primary concern in the provision of any new railway infrastructure.

Response:

Welsh Assembly Government agrees with this recommendation.

Recommendation 3

Recommendation:

The Committee.... Asks the Minister to confirm that, following completion of the infrastructure enhancement project, it would still be possible to accommodate a single platform station at Carno without compromising the performance or reliability of a future hourly service on the Cambrian Line.

Response:

The Cambrian Line Infrastructure Enhancement Project provides passive provision for a single platform station in the locality of Carno. The optimum site for a new station within the locality is not known. A technical feasibility study would need to be completed to understand:

• Compliance to engineering standards
• Compliance to the Disability Discrimination Act
• Ownership and availability of land
• Safety standards
• Impact on timetable reliability, performance and punctuality
• Cost and benefits

Stopping train services at Carno would increase actual journey time, and the impact of this on the timetable has not been fully modelled. A technical feasibility study would need to be undertaken before a definitive response to Recommendation 3 can be provided.

Recommendation 4

Recommendation:

The Committee.......Asks that the Minister's officials provide support to the Carno Station Action Group in developing and submitting a formal business case for such a station.

Response:

It is the role of the Transport Consortia (in this case TraCC), Welsh Assembly Government, Arriva Trains Wales and Network Rail to develop formal business cases for enhancements to the railway infrastructure.

Welsh Assembly Government believes that Carno Station Action Group can positively contribute towards this process through engagement with TraCC, rather than as a stand-alone entity.

Recommendation 5

Recommendation:

The Committee.... Considers that the position of Carno on a stretch of line between Caersws and Machynlleth where there is no station for a distance of more than 20 miles adds considerable weight to the case for a new station at this location.

Response:

This recommendation is noted, and should feature within the business case for a station at Carno.

Recommendation 6

Not Applicable to Welsh Assembly Government

Recommendation 7

Recommendation:

The Committee.....Asks the Minister to publish general guidance on preparing business cases for the opening of new stations in Wales, including guidance on what the potential costs could be.

Response:

The railway in Wales is an integral part of the UK rail network, and consistency of approach is therefore necessary. In view of this, the primary reference document for general advice is New Stations - A Guide for Promoters (September 2004), originally published by the Strategic Rail Authority and now a Department for Transport document (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/stations/newstationsaguideforpromoters).

In Wales, the majority of new transport projects will be assessed using an appraisal framework called WelTAG (Welsh Transport Appraisal Guidance). The purpose of WelTAG is to ensure that a balanced approach is taken when assessing the business case of projects, taking into the following impacts:

• economic
• social
• environmental

The Cambrian Line Infrastructure Enhancement Project was appraised using WelTAG principles.

Recommendation 8

Recommendation:

The Committee.....Asks the Minister to clarify the Assembly Government's view of the future role of the Cambrian Line - as an inter-urban service or one that also serves rural communities in mid Wales.

Response:

The Cambrian Line is part of the UK railway network and plays an important role in local, regional and national transport links.

The Assembly Government believes that, with careful timetable planning, the Cambrian Line is able to serve local, regional and national markets. These markets can be mutually inclusive rather than mutually exclusive.